GPO Mod wheel and NC Controller %7c96%7c Menu option

Hi,
I'm just in the process of setting the Mod wheel to somewhere mid-range (8000) for the orchestral template I'm building. I can see how to do it an instrument at a time - just wondered if there's a way to do it for *all* instruments in the score, in one go? As GPO starts off with the mod wheel set to zero, I think it's nearly always needed to set it to some larger value! That's easy to do in NC (of course), but if there are many instruments and then later maybe want to change or experiment with this "bias" setting it'd be nice to be able to change them all at once.
Thank you.
-Johnsmi

Hi Sherry,
Thanks for the detailed information. That is in fact exactly what I have been doing (really :-) ). And as you say it doesn't take too long. However with 44 staffs it is rather tedious. It's not doing it once that's the (small) problem though - more that if it then needs to be changed, perhaps several times, to experiment with GPO sound level.

Again, as you correctly point out GPO generally needs different sound levels for each instrument anyway, but I was just trying to set a reasonable non-zero level for all instruments and then go through again and make specific instrument adjustments.

Maybe I should put a request in for a new feature in 2.x on this point?

"Setting controller for ALL staffs to same value in one go"? Or maybe easier to be able to select all instruments in existing menu?
Thanks
Regards
-Johnsmi

Hi,

Well, here's my first "how do I..." question.
How can I get vibrato with trumpets and trombones, etc?
The mod wheel controls velocity. I selected "aftertouch" in GPO and JABB and set a percentage. Then set a value for cc#17 in Composer... No effect. Haven't been able to get anything from GPO forums or the manual, except to use Aftertouch and CC17. Thanks for any help!
Cheers,
Fred

Hi Sherry,

I've heard the convincing performances and have spent hours searching the forums. The download page has nothing to help find the answers. I have all the latest. The DVD version is the latest version just received in Dec. The tutorials offer nothing more than what I already have. Nowhere does anything explain how to get vibrato on the trumpet (other than "use aftertouch for vibrato intensity and CC17 for speed")...huh? They tell you what but not how. I tried selecting "aftertouch' in the Knotakt player along with CC#17 in Composer. I just flat out can not get a vibrato. I even tried using CC76 and CC77. The only way I can get the vibrato is by using general midi and CC#1. I can not get it with GPO or JABB instruments. Anything I can find in the forums assumes I am an expert. It's all Greek to me. I just can't get any answers. God forbid I should try using drop offs and kisses, etc. I'm not using a keyboard. I'm trying to get the effects with GPO that I can get with general midi with existing notation files. My keyboard does not have a mod wheel and I can not insert controllers with my keyboard. I have ran out of places to look for answers. Thanks for your suggestions and advice. If anyone has any .not files or .gpo or studio files using various controllers for various effects and can upload a file that I can analyze, that would be a big help. Thanks again!
Cheers,
Fred

Hi Fred,

I just read your post. Here is my experience and it is not so good.

I have bought JABB and GPO recently as you have. After installation, I did only a few tests. I was quite impressed with cc22 and cc23 for drums. It is excellent. I then noticed that mod wheel and velocity could not be controlled. This was a week ago. I will do some tests shortly and let you know.

Best wishes,

Herbert

Hi Herbert,

Thank you, Herbert! Maybe together we can figure something out. For the life me, I can not understand why GPO saw the need to use the mod wheel for velocity. They could use any number of "unidentified" controller numbers for that purpose. Another thing that is puzzling is that if you used pitch bend in existing songs, GPO totally messes them up. I use them for sax solos, trombone slides (also trumpet) and when using a GPO instrument, it sounds like someone hit the trombone player's elbow during the slide or punched the sax player in the mouth. Every pitch bend that I spent hours on perfecting with general midi now have to be completely redone to work properly with GPO instrumets. Many other parts have to be re-written as well. If there is a 16th note tied to a quarter note, GPO will play them separately. I guess I'll have to add pedal to all of them. What fun!!
It's really disheartening to listen to the awesome sounds the pros get with GPO and JABB. All I get is slop. It is depressing to say the least. Thanks for all your input. I'm sure glad you also have GPO and JABB. Your knowledge and experience will be a big help.

Cheers,
Fred

This may be a different solution, since I do not have GPO or JABB. I have been attempting to wean myself off arranger keyboards(Technics KN7000) to achieve maximum quality while playing live. Naively,I thought one could simply apply a cc #and produce vibrato.

I have Kontakt 2 and Collossus. I soon found out that, because of the extreme flexability possible in these programs, one has to go into the engine and make your own,unless you use KS or scripts. I chose to go into Kontakt,chose my waveform,assign LFO's,choose frequency, and use velocity as a controller.

I hope you two have an easier solution, but ,at least I can identify with your frustration.

For folks like me lurking in this forum and deciding that GPO is way too complicated, I see on the Garritan website that they will have a General MIDI product out in February. It will use normal general midi controllers and not mod wheel.

Howdy Fred,

Have you tried out any of they KS (keyswitch) instruments? I don't what all JABB has, but I know for GPO, some of the KS instruments go from 'straight" to "vibrato" when you use the KS.

ttfn,
Sherry

Hi Bernie,
Thanks for your input. You know, I'm 68 years old and in my lifetime I have found only one user manual that tells you exactly how to do everything there is to do informatively. That manual is Mark's Composer User Guide. (Thank you, Mark!). Because of that, ( before Composer ) whenever I would buy anything dealing with instructions, my first act would be to toss the intructions or manual back in the box and "do it myself". Then if I got into serious trouble I would fish the manual back out of the box and try to find the answer. In the case of GPO and JaBB, I read the manual from cover to cover several times. This is what the JaBB manual says in regard to vibrato.
" Vibrato Control: There are 2 controllers that affect vibrato. Aftertouch controls the intensity of the vibrato from no vibrato ( Aftertouch=value of “0” ) to exaggerated vibrato ( Aftertouch= high number value. ) Because both components of the vibrato are independently controllable the user can apply vibrato in a much more flexible and realistic fashion. The speed of the vibrato is controlled using cc17. Note that some keyboards, like those from M-Audio, have no after touch function but can assign cc131 to a programmable slider which, in turn, will send data out to your computer."

That's it!! No mention of how, what, where or when. Searching the forums, the tutorials, the troubleshooting, etc. etc. reveals only that one paragraph, period. Everyone does not have a keyboard containing a mod wheel and the ability to select every controller number available. With all the experts on the Native Instruments Forum, not a single person has considered answering the question, HOW??? I've asked to no avail. If I want vibrato in Composer, all I have to do is enter a note, select the Modulation Wheel and draw a curve. Voila!...Vibrato. A very simple process!

It's looking more and more like I should have just spent the money on a better sound card that allows for loading good sound fonts and forget about GPO. I haven't written a thing since I got it. I am sorry to sound so depressing...but it is. Hopefully, it will get better.

Cheers,
Fred

Hi Susan,

That's the best news I've heard all day. I hope they make it a free upgrade. That could be the answer! Thanks!
Fred

Hi Sherry,

" Have you tried out any of they KS (keyswitch) instruments? I don't what all JABB has, but I know for GPO, some of the KS instruments go from 'straight" to "vibrato" when you use the KS."

Yep! All the KS does for the brass instruments is offer the ability to go from "open" to "mute" on the fly.

Cheers,
Fred

Hi Sherry,

I have been using cc17 to draw the curve for vibrato speed. I selected Aftertouch in the drop down (down arrow next to velocity) and set the slider to as far as 100% and in between. Neither does anything.
Quote> "You'll need to be sure that the controller for
"Aftertouch" is set to cc131 in your Garritan Studio, as well, so that the two apps are not "talking" at cross purposes."

I see no way to set aftertouch to cc131 in Garritan Studio.

Unfortunately, my wife just received some very bad news concerning her health. She went to Baltimore ( our doctors are there ) yesterday and got the bad news a little while ago. I don't know how much I can put into music at this point. But, on the other hand, I may need something to keep my mind busy. I have to hold the fort down here in Virginia. Please remember her in your prayers. I would really appreciate it. Thank you!

Cheers,
Fred

Howdy Fred,

Please know that I will be praying for your wife, as well as for you and others in your sphere of family and friends. We've travelled that road before, and it can be rocky.

As for the controllers, since Composer doesn't have a way to graph the cc131, that value may be getting reset to 0 when you start a file in Composer, and that's probably why you're not hearing any vibrato in your files.

I've passed along the request to Mark to include support for all controllers, for use with Garritan libraries as well as any others that folks might be using, or contemplating using.

glr,
Sherry

Hi Fred
I am also sorry for the bad news. I have been there too.

I got so discouraged,I went out and bought an SD2 module from Ketron. It sounds great, but without the degree of choice I have with my software. I know, I am throwing money at the problem, but I am your age, and don't feel I can invest years to get simple vibrato from software.

Maybe good old Mark can come to the rescue.

Bernie

Hello Fred,

Patsy and you will be in my prayers also.

You might pass on to Patsy that I liked the piano painting she did for you so much that I've placed an order with my 16-year old son to do a piano art piece for me, except his media is digital graphics, and he's going to put a cat on top of my piano instead of the flowers Patsy put on top of your piano. Patsy's art particularly appeals to me.

Best wishes to both of you.

Cheers
-- Mark

Hi Fred,

I am very sad to hear about your wife.

My wife and I will pray for your wife.

Our thoughts and wishes will be with you. We have never met, but we share a passion.

Margaret, Herbert


::::::::::::::::::::::::::


We have been told that Composer and GPO work well together.

IT IS DISAPOINTING

I have just done a few tests. Composer 2 and Composer 1.1.7 behave differently. Composer 1.1.7 operates Mod Wheel as expected. In Composer 2, Mod Wheel turns on the sound for a staff only, but does not set the level. Both versions do not support midi controllers above 95 for 1.1.7 and 97 for version 2. So, Vibrato, very important for expression, can not be used.

There is a lack of communication between Composer and GPO. There is a lack of midi controllers in Composer to reasonably use GPO.

I hope to find some more time on the weekend for detailed tests.

While I am writing this, I am listening to the CD of sound recordings that came with GPO. It is very impressive. Not all effects seem to be part of GPO.


Best wishes,

Herbert

Hi Mark,

Thank you very much for your prayers for Patsy. She will be very happy to hear your words about her art as well. What makes it so difficult is the not knowing. An Ultrasound test revealed a solid mass in her breast. The doctor is pretty convinced it is cancer and she needs a biopsy for confirmation. The problem is that she is on Coumadin ( blood thinner for Atrial Fibulation ). It may take about 10 days to get her off the drug to make it safe to do the biopsy. So the waiting makes it even more difficult and prolongs the agony. Not to mention that she is at our old home in Baltimore and I am in Virginia Beach. I will need to throw a mattress in the car and pack up my German Shepherd and head up there shortly. Everything we own is here, so the problems are a little compounded. We have been married 49 years so we have some experience dealing with adversity. We've made it past all of that before and I expect we will make it past this as well. Thank you very much again for all your prayers and kind words.

Cheers,
Fred

Howdy Fred,

One of my best friends just went through this whole scenario, through a major surgery and follow up chemo. The treatments are so much better than they used to be, and Chris is doing great now. We'll keep you and Patsy in our prayers. The distance aspect makes it very difficult.

glr,
Sherry

Hi Margaret and Herbert,

Thank you very much for your prayers. I joked once about how we should have a big party and get to meet each other personally. This forum is like a large group of family and friends. Whenever anyone in this group has a question or a problem, no matter how trivial or complex, the answer is there within minutes. It's really amazing, and I have not found that anywhere else. I think you said it right when you said we share a passion. I'm sure that explains the closeness this group has.

I had a feeling you would figure out the problems with how GPO performs. Susan mentioned GPO will be coming out with a general midi product in February. Hopefully, that will be the answer to all the quirks. They should absolutely provide it as a free upgrade. I still can not understand why the GPO software uses controllers that are so prevalent in general midi for opposite effects. Thanks again for your testing and help.

Cheers,
Fred

Hi Sherry,

Thank you! That helps to make me feel better.

Best,
Fred

Hi Fred

Using JABB, I get mod wheel to work now properly.

Velocity sticks out from the other midi controllers, with its graphical adjustment in Composer. I would prefer to have uniform graphical adjustment tools for all controllers.

I hope that Mark makes a few changes to composer, for JABB and GPO to work better with Composer. Composer should be as universal as possible in its usability with other software.

Best wishes,

Herbert

Hi Herbert,
Glad you have the mod wheel working OK. I didn't have a problem with that as far as volume is concerned in Composer. I think Mark will get the problem solved. I guess a lot of people used GPO for the instrument sounds without getting too involved in the effects. I never really used the vibrato, for instance, in most of my work. But since I found how to use it in Composer, it became more important to me. I haven't tried experimenting yet with things like shakes and growls, etc. but that could become fun if those effects are usable with GPO and JaBB.

Cheers,
Fred

I see Garritan is releasing a marching and concert band package this month. I wonder if this is the one that has been anticipated.

http://www.garritan.com/band.html

Bernie

Hi Fred,

I am very sorry to hear about Patsy. I hope she is through this soon and again painting those gorgeous compositions, with the technique and coloration that I have enjoyed so much on your site.

Sorry, too, about your continued troubles with GPO. I think I join Susan in thinking using such a complex program is beyond my talents, or desire, for that matter. Although I have auditioned all the GPO instruments and find the demos first rate, I am slowly--very slowly--finding soundfonts that are at least comparable--not quite an orchestra's worth yet, but getting there. After all the time spent in searching, downloading, and sifting through banks for the gems, I'm feeling pretty exhausted. Just give me 32 channels and good celesta, harp, piano, etc., soundfonts I haven't found yet, and I'll be happy.

Of course I have to depend on setting the as performed duration of a note at at time, then testing each, where GPO lets you make whole passages legato, and I have to use program changes to adjust vibrato (short of learing to edit soundfonts, which is another time burner).

You might look at it this way: the work you do in learning GPO will probably turn out to be less than I've already spend working with soundfonts and eventually it will be easier to get the sounds you want.

Best to both you and Patsy,
mgj