GPO and MNC music contributions

Hi Fred,
One of the interface 'difficult' areas with GPO is its requirement that every different voice needs to be on a separate midi channel.

That is nothing to do with Composer, but a GPO requirement, and it is understandable as GPO's origins are in orchestral music where there is one instrument per stave (eg violin, cello etc). I have found with GPO a similiar problem with their organ sounds, that to change sounds requires a new midi channel, which means a new stave.

In another thread, I have been suggesting to Mark (and he agrees) that the interface these packages needs to be enhanced to make it easier to overcome these types of issues.

And these issues are in no way confined to GPO - every sound source package that I have used works differently and has another set of equally annoying issues.

Cheers ... Clyde

Hi Fred,
Just to illustrate that GPO and other software sound packages have their 'labour intensive' features, I have several organ packages, and they each have similiar problems:

(a) One organ packages requires a separate stave for each stop (almost impossible to use because of this)
(b) Another one requires notes be held down for the period that stops are drawn (ie each note on a separate channel indicates a stop is drawn, and if you want to have a stop drawn, then a certain note representing that stop is played - which can be for the whole piece). Again this is almost impossible to use, fortuantely there is a way around it, although it does impose some restrictions.
(c) Another organ package requires Modulator wheels be used for stop changes, each stop given a value of modulator wheel 81 to turn it on, and modulator wheel 80 to turn it off. Again, very hard to use, and the score is hard to read to see what is going on.

So don't feel too bad about the effort you need to use to drive GPO - and I'm sure sometime in the future interfaces to these things will be a lot better (at least I hope so).

Incidentally, I'm interested that it was necessary to do this with the GPO Jazz package, as I was wondering what they would do in this area.

Cheers ... Clyde

Hi Sherry, Clyde and MG,

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I am totally unable to get any recorder to work with GPO. I took MG's suggestion and downloaded "Acoustica". I like the recorder better than Audscity, but that won't record with GPO open either. It gives me the same error message as Audacity. Everything will record Composer or any other sounds "as heard", but as soon as I open GPO they turn their noses up. There is nothing I can't record. I am not new to using Audacity. I have used it successfull for over a year without incident. I just uninstalled and downloaded an earlier stable version and that did no good either. Yes, I need to use "stereo mix" as the source also. One thing that Acoustica added to the possible problem list was that the device may be in use by another program. It's not.
There are 48 processes running on my computer but nothing is using a lot of CPU. That ranges from 2% to 3 or 4%. I have no idea what processes I can safely end. Who knows what the processes are? You sure can't tell by looking at the file names ( except for a few ). Maybe I'll get brave one day and try ending a few at a time to see if that helps. The parameters (as far as I can tell) are in agreement 44,100Hz and 16 bit depth on everything. There could be a problem in ASIO4all. My sound card is accepted fine and the "Out" shows available, but the in is "unavailable" . I've tried everything sourceforge recommends there also, but can't get that the way it should be either. I'm thinking of not using the ASIO4all driver, but I don't know what to expect if I don't use it. If I don't get this thing straightened out, I will have to use GPO instruments only. That would take an immense amount of work. My son gave me those programs for Christmas. I don't know how to tell him they are not working for me. He lives right next door so I can't tell him what a wonderful time I am having. He's sure to want to hear it. All I wanted to do was just add a few GPO instruments to each of my files and record them with a nicer sound. Using GPO for everything would make the files huge to say the least. I wouldn't have enough hard drive space left to write a 2 sentence letter. Oh well, if anyone can get me straight, I sure would appreciate it! Thanks again.
Cheers,
Fred

P.S. My son just walked in and, being the honest guy I am, I had to tell him and explain my problems. He said "Dad, I'm 47 years old so I can safely say that over the last 47 years I have never seen you not accomplish what you wanted to accomplish. You'll figure it out and then it will all be easy". What a winner!

Hi again all,
Here is something interesting that may shed some light on my problem. (although I have no idea what to do about it)
The Acoustica Recorder I downloaded (trial version) has a dialog box under "preferences" with a small box that says:
"Some sound cards do not support simultaneous recording and playback. This will not matter if you are playing sounds from another sound card". Below that statement is a "Test" button.
With GPO Studio NOT loaded, pressing the test button states "Sound card supports full duplex"
Opening GPO STudio and pressing the test button again states "Sound card FAILED full duplex test".
Closing GPO Studio and pressing the test button again, the message then reads "Sound card supports full duplex". So there is definitely something wrong only in GPO. Any ideas?
Thanks again,
Fred

Hi Fred,

And I thought I had sound card woes! I may not have the technological expertise to grasp what is going on, but I assure you I feel your pain. It may even be that I have a glimmer of what the problem may be.

First, though, what you said about being out the money may not be necessarily so. I have seen a 30, and sometimes 60 day money back provision for all the software I've purchased. So you may be able to take heart about that.

Something you said in your last couple of posts brought a tsunami of things I'd rather not remember crashing in. When I got this machine, it had Audigy HD Audio powered by a Sigmatel on-board chip. It defaulted to Microsoft's GS Wavetable Software synth, but also had a Creative Soundfont synth, with which I could use soundfonts.

I had a horrid and very depressing time trying to get a sound card (that is the physical card you have to put in a slot in the computer) to work at all, even though I disabled the Sigmatel chip in the BIOS set up, which the Dell techies assured and re-assured then re-re-assured me was all I had to do. I wanted the sound card, btw, because I wanted to have more than 16 channels and the card has 2 hardware synths which allow up to 32 channels. And also because I got messages similar to yours when I tried to record. In fact, no recorder would give me the what you hear or midi synth option to start with. And the sound quality wasn't very good to begin with.

Finally, I not only disabled the on-board audio in the BIOS setup, but I deleted every thing that had anything to do with audio before re-installing the sound card. Finally, the card would work and I have good sound and can record using midi synth and what you hear. I also have to set volume levels down at under 50% to keep Soundblaster from living up to its name. And I have only one hardware Synth, though there are 2, that I can use without crashing the computer; so while I can have up to a couple of gigabytes worth of soundfonts on that, I still have only 16 channels available.

Anyhow, I feel your pain acutely. What I am wondering is whether your computer has an on-board chip powering your audio. Your lack of options for recording sounds like the same situation I had with the Sigmatel chip. Neither I nor the Dell techies found any way to be able to record from Composer, or any software for that matter.

My rage when I think about all this still increases my vituperative vocabulary to a level that even Shakespeare would have envied. My wife used to wonder why steam was rising from my hair and smoke was billowing from my ears.

However, there are consolations.

One is that, as long as I can get everything into 16 channels, I can use soundfonts. There are a lot of them out there and I have been able to cull some very good ones for a number of instruments. So far I have only looked at freebies, but I imagine some of those that are for sale might be even better. So far I have found a violin, cello, tuba, clarinet, flute, and a lot of percussion instruments that sound as much like the real things as is probably possible. As long as I need only 16 channels, I can record directly from Composer, then use Acoustica as described in the next paragraph.

Then there is Syntfont which lets you replace GM instruments with any soundfont located in any folder on your computer, and it gives you 32 channels, then play it to a .wav or .mp3 file. The file can be loaded into Audacity or Acoustica and reverb, chorus, graphic equalizer, stereo enhancement, etc. effects applied. (Synthfont is donationware.)

There is also VST, which I don't begin to understand, and haven't had time to explore yet.

The trouble with Synthfont is that to make changes, Composer has to reloaded, the changes made, then Synthfont has to be loaded and the changes tried out, then if there are more changes, etc., etc. Also, Synthfont has dropouts when maximum true polyphony reaches 100.

Also, Mark has said somewhere in the Forum that a version of Composer is in the works which will allow more than 16 channels and use soundfonts, which would get rid of the necessity of switching programs to make every change. (Some things, like volume, pan, etc. can be changed in Synthfont, but a crescendo can't be added or modified, for instance.)

So, although you may not get quite the sound of GPO instruments, as long as your card or chip can use soundfonts and you can use Audacity to make recordings and work with effects, you should be able to get the kind of sound that is close to what you want. And probably in a much simipler fashion.

So take heart. One way or another, you will get there.

all best,
mgj

PS. If you'd be interested, I could make and send you an .mp3 file in which first I'd play the MS Wavetable SW synth instrument and then a more realistic soundfont that I've found. You can hear the vast difference even in the raw recording; then you could load it into Audacity and experiment with the application of effects. Although I have a system which is still far from right, it would give you an indication of what is nonetheless possible.

Hi Fred

I know exactly how you feel. David has expressed the frustrations well.

I have had no problems so far starting up JABB and GPO, which I received yesterday. Perhaps it helps, if I tell you about my experience.

In connection with Composer, I use Realtec AC97 Audio as you do. I have a different setup for Cubase which does not matter here. I use a small audio mixer to connect the PC and a sound system and for mixing and recording other sources. This should not matter either. I use a low cost audio editor from www.goldwave.com, which I highly recommend for its many necessary and excellent features required for any serious audio recording.

I installed JABB, GPO and Garritan Studio.

1. Open Garritan Studio.
2. Click on the first of eight groups. Kontakt Player comes up.
3. Select the instruments.
4. Open your file in Composer.
5. Under Device select GPO Studio or what ever you wish.
6. Under Channel select the channel as per your Garritan Studio choice.

I used both, General Midi and GPO instruments in the same file. It all worked well for me, including recording to Goldwave.

Best wishes for your endeavor,
Best wishes for a successful and prosperous New Year,

Herbert

Hi Fred

It should have been mgj has expessed his frustrations well

Herbert

Hi Fred,

Do all the recorders on your computer have a Device Settings option? I just noticed that in Acoustica it gives me only two options for playback and recording. One is the Audigy 2 Zs and the other is modem line, or somesuch. I think that one or the other was set for modem line when I first got it and I had to set them both for the Audigy 2 Zs. Maybe this is worth a look.

best,
mgj

Hi MG,

Yes, they all have options for playback and recording. The two options I have are Realtek AC97 Audio and Default Wave Device. Playback and recording are both set to Realtek AC97 Audio. Thanks!
Cheers,
Fred

Hi Fred

I have set the driver in Garritan Studio to “Windows Direct Sound-RealtecAC97Audio_1”. The software also has a record function on its Host Application. This function only records the Garritan instruments playing in Composer, but not any GM instruments, you might also use in the same song.

What is really needed here is a function in Composer that exports a .not file to a .wav file.

Best wishes

Herbert

Hi again, Herbert

Using Direct Sound- REaltek AC97 Audio_1 as the driver, are you able to record "as heard" into any recorders (Audactity, Acoustica,etc.) with a mixture of GPO and General Midi instruments? That's the only problem I'm having. Thanks again!

Cheers,
FRed

Hi Fred

I have had another look at my hardware setup. The main difference of what I have here and what you may have is a small hardware mixer I am using. By using the mixer, I am feeding “Line Out” of the PC back into “Line In”. It works well enough, but may not help you. It would be far better, to have a software solution, rather than conversions of the music file via analog in the sound card.

By this method you can always record what you hear.

Best wishes,

Herbert

Howdy Fred,

Congratulations!!!!

And now you can send someone up here to the beanfield to flog that crazy chick who was so all-fired gung-ho about using Asio4All ;)

Enjoy using GPO and JBB - I think you're in for a blast!!

ttfn,
Sherry

Howdy Fred,

That's great that things are working better all round.

For the echo in Audacity, you might want to check the Preferences settings (under Edit, of all places), and fiddle with the "play while recording setting" to see how that affects any "echo" you hear.

ttfn,
Sherry

Hi Fred,

Wheeeee! You must feel like dancing a jig about now.

Did you actually get more volume for the same settings? I don't remember just when that happened to me, but I do remember eliminating ASIO somewhere along the line.

Don't forget to write down that jig.

all best,
mgj

Hi again, Sherry

>>>For the echo in Audacity, you might want to check the Preferences settings (under Edit, of all places), and fiddle with the "play while recording setting" to see how that affects any "echo" you hear.

Aha! That did the trick. I unchecked "Software Playthrough- Play new track while recording it". I left the 'Play other tracks while recording new one' checked. I had to fiddle a long time with various volumes, but the best I could get it is with playback set to 0.7 and record set to 0.1. Now the spectograms are NEARLY identical. The newly recorded track is exactly 0.35285 seconds behind the original track. I guess that explains the horrible echo when trying to record . I don't think it's a coincidence that the latency with my AC97 Audio is 35MS. hmmm! Anyway, I think there is a way to line up those two tracks, but it isn't a necessity because I don't need them to be together to record the new track by itself.

Thanks again!
Fred

Hi Fred

I am really happy for you, now that you are progressing with recording GPO.

I fear, there will be more hurdles to overcome. The Modulation Wheel seems to have problems in relation to the volume level after playback has started in Composer.

I have to correct something I have said yesterday. You do not need an external hardware mixer, to record composer with the Goldwave Sound Editor. You just select Stereo Mix as your source. There are no echoes or any other problems.

What do you mean, when you say that the newly recorded track is exactly 0.35285 seconds behind the original track? I do a lot of recording, cutting, splicing, mixing converting etc. I never had a problem with lining up tracks precisely.

Your idea of a party at Mark’s place is excellent. Please put me down on the invitation list and for free plane tickets for two.

Best wishes,

Herbert

Hi Fred

The problem I had with the Modulation Wheel, was easily fixed. The Modulation Wheel needs to be set to an initial value in Composer’s GraphOverNotes. This is all explained in Mark’s tutorial on GPO.

Best wishes,

Herbert

Hello All,

I just re-recorded "Solitude", a song I composed in May, 2005 using GPO Steinway Grand Piano. The song was originally improvised on the fly and, including editing, took less than 5 minutes. You can listen to it on my Soundclick web site. Any feedback or suggestions for improvement would be appreciated. Thanks!!

Cheers,
Fred

http://www.soundclick.com/fredwinterling

Hi Fred,

I listened to, then downloaded, "Solitude." For some reason I'm getting sounds like LP scratches, though not at regular intervals. But I do like this composition. That is a nice sounding piano, too--mellow bass register, without being muddy, and progressively brighter treble.

"Saxophone Rock" I had only heard in the .not version. Needless to say, this is more fun. Congratulations to both you and the volcalist.

best,
mgj

Hi Fred,

Good grief! I guess the lesson is: look at the details before you download. When I heard it, I thought you had latched on to a text to speech program. On my return to the site a little while ago, I wasn't really surprised to find who the singer is since we already know she is multi-talented.

Nice job, Sherry! and nice song, Fred!

best,
mgj

PS. No 'scratches' in "Saxophone Rock."

Hi Fred,

I got the scratches listening on the site, both mp3 and hi fi, as well as in the downloaded file. Also there was a hiss, like a tape beginning, which I got rid of by turning the down the volume, which was much louder on this piece than the others. The scratch went away, but not entirely, when I turned the volume down, too, but so did the sense of presence--reverb.

It was just this one piece, so I suspect you may be right about a download or maybe upload problem.

all best,
mgj